Alex Faaborg [:faaborg] (Firefox UX) Reporter
	Description • 17 years ago

Windows XP introduced a new visual style for tree views that (unlike windows 95 through 2000) no longer contained dashed lines between elements in the tree.  For visual integration with XP (and now Vista as well), we should remove the dashed lines from our tree views.

	Alex Faaborg [:faaborg] (Firefox UX) Reporter
	Comment 1 • 17 years ago

Note that bug 403149 will update the expansion and collapsing images for Vista.

	Mike Beltzner [:beltzner, not reading bugmail] Assignee
	Comment 2 • 17 years ago

Vlad/Enn: how do we do this? Do we draw this using CSS or do we get it from the system?

	Neil Deakin
	Comment 3 • 17 years ago

Just change the -moz-tree-line lines in tree.css for Windows to what they are on other platforms. They aren't native themed currently.

	AndrewM
	Comment 4 • 17 years ago

(In reply to comment #0)
> ...
> 
> Windows XP introduced a new visual style for tree views that (unlike windows 95
> through 2000) no longer contained dashed lines between elements in the tree. 
> For visual integration with XP (and now Vista as well), we should remove the
> dashed lines from our tree views.

Just as a sidenote, Vista (and I think XP) does in fact still use dashed lines with tree views, in the Registry Editor. Though of course you are right that most places the user sees a tree view, it will not have dashed lines :)

	Kai Liu
	Comment 5 • 17 years ago

(In reply to comment #0)
> Windows XP introduced a new visual style for tree views that (unlike windows 95
> through 2000) no longer contained dashed lines between elements in the tree. 
> For visual integration with XP (and now Vista as well), we should remove the
> dashed lines from our tree views.
> 

Not quite.  Microsoft added a user preference ("simple view"), which, among other things, turned off the dotted lines in the Shell (i.e., Windows Explorer; this would also include file picker dialogs, etc.).  The default setting was to have this "simple view" enabled, but it could easily be turned off by the user, thus restoring the dotted lines.  Outside of the Shell, many native Microsoft apps such as the Registry Editor, Management Console, Dependency Walker, etc., etc., still sport the dotted lines, as the attachment in comment #4 attests.  This is because the Windows tree control still draw the dotted lines.  As a result, many third-party apps still have the dotted lines as well (e.g., look at Winamp's preferences dialog)

So my thoughts on this, in a nutshell,
1) The dotted lines are hardly dead.  Many native apps--including many Microsoft apps--still use them, even in Vista.
2) If they are to be turned off for consistency with Windows Explorer, then it should be done in a way that respect the user preferences set for Explorer.
3) While it may not be aesthetically pleasing, the dotted lines are practical, and they improve usability by allow the user to visually parse hierarchy with fewer mental "clock cycles"

My own personal opinion is that this should be a wontfix unless we are willing to do something about (2).

	Mike Connor [:mconnor]
	Comment 6 • 17 years ago

1) Is kinda irrelevant.  MS apps often are long-lived, and don't get visually refreshed.  It tends to flag those apps as being odd, really.  I think 2) is not really something I care about.  Its all well and good to follow system settings, but the default should match above all. 3) is dubious to me, I always found it noise, and on OS X I certainly don't have problems understanding the hierarchy.  That's what the indentation is for...

	Alex Faaborg [:faaborg] (Firefox UX) Reporter
	Comment 7 • 17 years ago

Also the visual design of the expansion widgets (which will be landing soon) helps a lot with seeing the hierarchy on vista.

	Mike Connor [:mconnor]
	Comment 9 • 16 years ago

Comment on attachment 317171 [details] [diff] [review]
removes tree lines from XP and Vista, tested with selection, hover, etc

woo, ship it.

	Mike Beltzner [:beltzner, not reading bugmail] Assignee
	Comment 10 • 16 years ago

oops, getting rid of redundant rules, carrying over reviews

	:Gavin Sharp [email: gavin@gavinsharp.com]
	Comment 11 • 16 years ago

mozilla/toolkit/themes/winstripe/global/tree.css 	1.14 

	neil@parkwaycc.co.uk
	Comment 12 • 16 years ago

(In reply to comment #5)
> Not quite.  Microsoft added a user preference ("simple view"), which, among
> other things, turned off the dotted lines in the Shell (i.e., Windows Explorer;
> this would also include file picker dialogs, etc.).  The default setting was to
> have this "simple view" enabled, but it could easily be turned off by the user,
> thus restoring the dotted lines.
Perhaps we could have some way of turning off "simple view" in the XUL?

	Igor Velkov
	Comment 13 • 16 years ago

Please, add preference to turn this "feature" off!
There is "modern" and many custom themes without dotted lines for users found it as "noice".

Theming mechanism was invened to help people get new look easy, if they want it. So, why I must get new look, when I want to have old look? 

I need this dotted lines, to know hierarchy level, and to easy visually compare level of different nested subtrees.

	Kai Liu
	Comment 14 • 16 years ago

Hehe.  Using the DOMi to look at an element deep in the tree without these guides was, um... fun.  :)

The problem with removing the lines from the toolkit (vs. removing them just from Places) is that it affects everything that uses the tree view, including things like the DOMi, which is one case where there really is an impact on usability (harder to determine depth without lines to count).

That having been said, this could be overridden with userChrome.css (which is what I ended up doing), so I suppose for those who know, there is that option...

	Alice0775 White
	Comment 15 • 16 years ago

(In reply to comment #14)
> Hehe.  Using the DOMi to look at an element deep in the tree without these
> guides was, um... fun.  :)
> 
> The problem with removing the lines from the toolkit (vs. removing them just
> from Places) is that it affects everything that uses the tree view, including
> things like the DOMi, which is one case where there really is an impact on
> usability (harder to determine depth without lines to count).
> 
> That having been said, this could be overridden with userChrome.css (which is
> what I ended up doing), so I suppose for those who know, there is that
> option...
> 

I agree with you.

	dickvl
	Comment 16 • 16 years ago

Can you post the code for userChrome.css to undo those changes?
That would save me some time to try and find the correct code myself.
Without the lines it is very difficult to use the DOM Inspector.

	Kai Liu
	Comment 17 • 16 years ago

(In reply to comment #16)
> Can you post the code for userChrome.css to undo those changes?
> That would save me some time to try and find the correct code myself.
> Without the lines it is very difficult to use the DOM Inspector.
> 

Sure.  Attaching...


I just noticed bug 430852, which lists other use cases where the tree lines are useful.  TB, having forked the widget theme, isn't affected, and maybe SM should've done that too.

	Henrik Skupin [:whimboo][⌚️UTC+2]
	Comment 18 • 16 years ago

Verified with Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.1pre) Gecko/2008062706 GranParadiso/3.0.1pre ID:2008062706 and the appropriate build on Windows Vista.