window tiling: need pref to allow New Browser to appear above existing ones I love the way Mozilla opens the window exactly where the previous one was (this nice feature was broken with the fix for bug 25455). I move and size my browser window to exactly where i want it (as does anybody not working in full screen - beginners work in full screen, so they aren't even affected). What better feature than to have the new window nicely placed where you want it. The windows taskbar shows what programs are open, so I really don't see how anybody could get confused. There should be a pref under "Appearance" for: +-- Window Positioning -----------------------------------+ | <> Cascade new Mozilla windows (default) | | <> Open new windows directly on top of previous window | +---------------------------------------------------------+ What harm can this do? The appearance preferences screen is still virtually empty and has lots of space for a useful feature like this.

Peter, having dealt with enough beginners, I think you may be wrong in assuming that beginners work in full screen (and hence, the new cascading behavior *can* be a good thing). However, I'd agree that having a prefs for this would probably solve all such concerns.

> What harm can this do? It would make people laugh at us -- since we don't have prefs for useful things like showing toolbars as pictures/text/both, but we do have prefs for useless things like showing new windows on top of previous ones. > The appearance preferences screen is still virtually empty That's probably because it shouldn't exist.

some people are interested in appearance. If you are not, that is OK, but don't impose yourself on others. > showing toolbars as pictures/text/both difficult with themes (which are great) > appearance pref screen ... shouldn't exist Yes, it should. Customizing tooltips, fonts, colors and themes (and window tiling) is very appreciated by many. People will definetely not laugh because nowadays most want to be able to customize anything they decide they want to customize (ever looked under: control panel - internet - advanced? We're lightyears away from offering such flexibility). OK, enough discussion. If someone could please implement this feature, at least *I* would be VERY grateful.

Just to add a few cents. I use Mozilla the same way Peter does. However, the Sawfish Window Manager on Linux has a nifty feature called "Matched Windows" which allows me to specify how and where I want all of the windows for a particular application to open. On Windows with Netscape, I simply maximized Netscape. Each window would open in a maximized state, providing the same feature. So, I do use Mozilla like Peter, but I don't need the preference. FWIW. :-)

Taking...

Peter, the priority and milestone fields are for the bug owner only. Please don't touch them. The attitude that "If you don't want this pref, you don't have to use it. But some people might like it." should not be the driving force in software design. Features are added to please the greatest number of users, not on a whim or because of available space. > The appearance preferences screen is still virtually empty and has lots of > space for a useful feature like this. Yes, as Matthew said, that should be an indication that it need not exist -- not an invitation to fill it up. I can't think of a "feature" that would promote the idea that Mozilla is bloated due to misguided engineering resources moreso than this. Marking wontfix.

Mozilla must not get bloated. Verifying as wontfix.

I have to commment on this bug as I disagree strongly with both sides of this argument. 1) Mozilla should cascade by default. 2) This should be a GUI option. For point #1, every multiple windowed application on Windows cascades. Linux can let the WM handle things. For point #2. The more customizable the browser the better. The defaults are very important and must be chossen with the upmost care because 90% of users can not find the configure menu, much less actually configure the browser. However, I don't care if I have to buy a 200 page book on how to configure Mozilla, every possible option should be GUI configurable. Don't think I am correct? What are the most popular end user software on the planet? Outlook, IE, Opera, Eudora, etc... Each of these software packages have huge config panels and this is what makes them powerful. Again, 90% of users dont ever even see the config pannel and just use the defaults, the 5% use it and are not technical and need a clean limited set of options. 5% are IT and setup browers for their corprations and need every option avaliable. Putting it in a config file might as well be putting it on the moon. Loot at the windows regestry. One of the most popular utilities is one that puts a GUI interface on keys that are easy to edit in the regestry, but you have to plow through 1000 pages of docs to figure them out. IT is too busy to do this and will leave IE on the desktop because it is easy to configure. I think this design method would hurt Mozilla in the long run. However, because Mozilla is open, I predict one year from now, one of the most popular plugins for Mozilla will be a replacement/addon config dialog. Greg Breland Web Master American HealthTech

> every possible option should be GUI configurable. Have you seen the reviews? Read the articles? Word on the street is that Mozilla is bloated. Let me know how making every possible aspect of the app, down to basic window positioning, configurable is going to help this perception. Your already-troublesome post is tarnished furthur by a noticeable contradiction. First you attempt to prove that IE, Opera and others are so popular with end-users because of their unlimited options. Then you immediately point out that 90% of their users aren't even aware of said options. Not to mention that Opera isn't one of the most popular end-user software programs "on the planet" by any standard, but let's not get into that now. If you have the time to read a 200-page book about how to customize everything in Mozilla, surely it would be better spent towards hacking your own version to suit your needs (without bloating the app for the rest of its users). This bug is, and will remain, wontfix.

- IE is highly configurable -> IE is the most popular browser (I know, it's not the only reason) - win registry is highly configurable (only through TweakUI) -> TweakUI is highly popular - Mozilla currently has limited UI configurability -> you do the math Limiting options is usually a bad idea. Cluttering options menus is also bad. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water -> Concentrate on designing good preferences dialogues and put "miscellaneous" options in "Advanced - Extras Options" into one long list (like: control panel - internet - advanced) for the Type-A people who are often also the people who will go to the extra effort of installing and configuring Mozilla instead of just clicking the IE icon on the desktop - thus increasing the installed base for Mozilla. Don't take the easy (and dogmatic) way out, please.

IE is popular because it's there when joe user pulls his new Dimension or Presario out of the box. You're seriously deluding yourself if you think Windows and IE have the marketshare they do because they offer some configurability applets. The number of people that install TweakUI is likely a small fraction of the total number of windows users.

.. but that "small number" (of users who like to "tweak") just might be those that advize their non-computer extert buddies to use Mozilla or NOT. At least the configurability of IE is definetely not hurting IE - something to think about.

I just read this article about computers and operating systems, and that they should be easy to use. This may be of interest for you if you are interested in ease of use in general: http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/7158.html It makes one very inspired to turn Mozilla into something easier to use...

I agree, the default settings should be well thought out and most users shouldn't need to even look at the preferences. Also, the preferences should be kept lean to allow for quick access to vital settings. But don't for a even second underestimate the importance of satisfying the Type-A computer "geeks" who want (need!) an advanced prefs tab with a very long list of tweakable settings. It is these computer geeks that will help spread mozilla tenfold their own number (I am personally responsible for my wife, my parents, my spetparents and my company (20+ users) for using NC4.x!!!).

PLairo, if you feel a strong urge to create this pref. Then make it yourself and use it on your local tree. But I doubt there are many users that would actually want to use this on their computer.

I would love to, but unfortunately I cannot program. I really don't see your two main oints: 1. It bloats the software. Adding a feature that merely toggles a behaviour on and off cannot take up more than a few lines of code. We're probably talking about a miniscule amout of code - far from bloat! 2. It would confuse most users. If it were placed in "prefs -> advanced -> optional settings", I think it would be pretty clear that these settings are optional. (BTW, this would be a nice place for a UI for the prefs.js settings) 3. Too few users "tweak" Well, maybe true as seen compared to the total population of users; but compared to the people that decide to make the "extra" effort to not use IE (because it's already on the desktop) and to install mozilla, the proportion is much larger. Remember, computer "afficiados" (tinkerers) were the ones that made Netscape popular. To sum up: it costs minimal resources and benefits those users that will go the extra mile to prostletize mozilla. Don't you see that you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you resist because you're very busy right now, that's OK. But don't discard the idea just yet - please.

PLairo, this is the kinda stuff you have newsgroups for - discussing potential RFE's and such. So please, don't comment in this bug anymore if you want to start some kind of discussion.