From bug 79188: ------- Additional Comments From Blake Ross 2001-05-23 18:14 ------- mpt or a technical writer should review the wording (for one, "Selecting more items may increase download time" sounds fishy. More items than what?) I don't think that should say "Offline Item Name". They're not necessarily offline items (although they potentially are). And "Selected" doesn't really say much about the other column (nor are the items necessarily selected, although they potentially are). Also, I think the checkboxes should be on the left of and closer to the items, pursuant to the common layout of a task list, and so that people don't have to try to line up the checkboxes with the proper items (which would be more of a problem if this dialog was resized). The titlebar text seems a bit long and nearly duplicates the (probably too long) intro text, but again, I'll let a tech writer comment on that...

Blake and Jglick, here is the spinoff you asked for.

Note: this bug is only for the wording part. Not the checkboxes and all that in jglick's "proposed dialog".

Modified working for dialog title, column headers and descriptive text. Column header for the checkbox column: thoughts on the visual "x"? We could also used words instead or just leave the column name blank if folks prefer? Disabled dashes for Account level in the checkbox column. These can be just left blank if folks think that is better. Thought this might help users scan across the columns better?

Jglick: I don't like the disabled dashes. It is easier to "scan" if there is nothing there. Also, I think we should use words instead of that X in the column header. The wording at the top was good though. :)

OK, screenshot without dashes coming up. Any ideas for what to name the "X" column? Leave it blank?

Mpt says (regarding wording for the other columns): <mpt> oh, that's easy <mpt> The columns shouldn't have headers Furthermore: <mpt> The checkbox column really *should* be to the left of the folder names ... <mpt> it's better UI-wise. For any theme except *ahem* Mac Classic, putting a checkbox column to the right instead of the left makes it unnecessarily difficult to tell which checkbox goes with which folder. I will try to fix this, along with jglick's wording in this bug. Morphing summary

get UI buy off from jglick, first. if she agrees, she'll change the spec. otherwise, let's follow the spec.

Comments from Robin Foster (tech pubs): The wording that's there looks fine. I personally like having the columns labelled, because I think it spells out clearly what types of items are listed in the dialog. Otherwise, people have to look at the items to determine what types of items are listed. For the checkbox column, 4.x used the column label "Download". I like that because, again, it reinforces what will happen if you check an item.

I like your last attachment (36162) that shows the column headers. I'd suggest adding the word "Download" as the title for the column with the checkboxes.

Column headers for a listbox are useful if you have two or more columns of text, or two or more columns of checkboxes or radio buttons, so people can tell which column is what. But here, you only have one column of text, and one column of checkboxes, so there is no point in including any column headers. They will be completely redundant with the label above the listbox (as Jennifer's `folders and/or newsgroups ... Folders and Newsgroups' screenshot shows); and because they are constricted in size and grammar, they won't be as useful as a label above the listbox either. > Otherwise, people have to look at the items to determine what types of items > are listed. That doesn't apply in this case -- since we only have one column of text, people already have to look at the items anyway. As for `select', that's a bit misleading -- selecting a row in a listbox is an altogether different thing from choosing it by clicking its checkbox. Generally you should use `choose' instead. So, I suggest: * title = "Items for Offline Use" * label = "Choose the mail folders and newsgroups you want to download for offline use." * column headers = none.

>Look, ma, no column headers! (screenshot from the 4.x dialog) 4.x Mac didn't use column headers consistently. Offline selection dialog doesn't have headers, yet Subscribe and Message Filters dialogs do have column headers. 4.x Windows used column headers for Offline, Subscribe and Filters dialogs. I attached a couple different screenshots to illustrate the different suggestions that have been made. I think Robin makes a valid point that the column headers help users better understand what they are being shown. The Subscribe dialog and the Message Filters dialogs both have their "Selection" columns to the right. Is it important to be consistent with that?

> The Subscribe dialog and the Message Filters dialogs both have their > "Selection" columns to the right. Is it important to be consistent with > that? Yes, they should be fixed to remove their column headers and put their checkboxes to the left as well. But that, as they say, is a Different Bug.

I like mpt's suggestions for title and label. However, I believe that labeling the columns will help make this dialog box more understandable for users. For the checkbox column, I'd suggest either "Download" or "Available for offline use"

For what it's worth here, I agree with MPT. It is obvious what the columns do because of the wording. And it looks nicer with attachment 36161 [details]

robinf: why do we even have the wording at the top of the dialog if it doesn't make those two columns obvious? I don't see the point of adding redundancy.

column headers also provide the functionality of being able to move the columns.

jglick: there is no point of resizing the columns in this case.

If resizing or reordering the checkboxes is useful here, then don't we also allow the user to resize or reorder the `Use secure connection', `Check for new mail at startup', etc checkboxes in the Account Manager? ... Because they're *checkboxes*. > For the checkbox column, I'd suggest either "Download" or "Available for > offline use" Remember, half the reason for moving the checkbox column to the left is to move them closer to the items to which they refer. Like ordinary checkboxes are. Giving the checkbox column a header, `Available for offline use', would not only make the column even wider than the column showing the name of the item, it would move the items very far away indeed from their respective checkboxes. Even `Download' with an unlucky localization would make the distance between an item and its checkbox annoyingly large. Perhaps that's why checkboxes don't usually have column headings.

>I don't see the point of adding redundancy. I understand your concern about avoiding redundancy. However, in this case, IMHO, I think the column headings help make the dialog more understandable. If the end result is that the dialog with column headings is more understandable for users, that should outweigh concerns about redundancy.

robinf: My point is that this is adding redundancy for the user. See mpt's comment.

Available or Subscribe(d) jglick: the nc4 stuff i'm used to had check or dot which was much easier to scan, can you prototype that? hwaara: having nothing is confusing because you can't subscribe to servers (well i don't think you can, what would it mean?)

> Available or Subscribe(d) Huh? > hwaara: having nothing is confusing because you can't subscribe to servers (well i don't think you can, what would it mean?) Huh?

Yes, we should have tri-state checkboxes which allow you to turn on/off all subscribed folders for an account at once (outdented from the checkboxes for individual folders/groups) -- but that should be filed as a Different Bug. Making checkboxes inside listboxes easier to scan in Windows Classic is bug 71364. It wouldn't be a bad idea for checkboxes inside listboxes in Modern to have the tick/dot appearance they had in 4.x, since that would fit with the general appearance of Modern -- but that should be filed as a Different Bug.

>If resizing or reordering the checkboxes is useful here, then don't we also >allow the user to resize or reorder the `Use secure connection', `Check for new >mail at startup', etc checkboxes in the Account Manager? ... Because they're >*checkboxes*. Yes they are checkboxes, but they are inside a Listbox widget. And listboxes generally have columns of data. This isn't a couple prefs to be turned on/off, its the Folder Pane view of Accounts. Maybe a checkbox isn't appropriate to be used as a way to select which folders/newsgroups are selected for offline.

> listboxes generally have columns of data. Listboxes often (as in this case) have only one substantive column. In such cases they rarely, if ever, have a column header. I think the fact that we're using two columns at all here is an implementation accident which the user should not have to care about. Certainly the user should not have to read a label and a column header which say essentially the same thing.

jglick: yes. it looks pretty good too :)

Now we got a bit offtopic (with the alternative checkbox-images...). What exactly do you all want changed, except for the not yet decided column-hiding and reordering? I'm mostly thinking about wordings here...

bouncing off to 0.9.3

Reassign

Not sure why this is assigned to me. This is a UI thing, isn't it? Reassigning to Diane. Mohan is already cc'ed, so if it's yours, Mohan, please takeit.

Since this bug was supposed to be about wording, this is the wording I suggest based on the comments in the bug. Title: "Items for Offline Use" Description: "Select the mail folders and newsgroups you would like to download for offline use." Columns: "Folders and Newsgroups", "Download"

I agree with the latest proposal. It matches the 4.x synchronize dialog and 6.x subscribe dialog. Attaching patch file

I guess it's OK for now (but I still want the columns hidden, grr :) ). r=hwaara -- it's an improvement over the current one.

Request SR, Seth?

sr=sspitzer

checked in

Using commercial trunk builds: 2001080203 NT 4.0 2001080208 linux 2.2 2001080208 mac 9.0.4 Verified the select folders for offline use window follow's jglick's comments on 2001-06-28 10:27. The columns are adjustable. Checking various boxes works and the settings are saved. Tested both themes Note: the sidebar used to scroll up and down looks little whack but I see this same problem in Mail/News Account settings left pane. So it must be some general bug. (In Classic theme) Also, if you adjust the 'download' column, towards the left. the checkboxes don't move as much as the column heading. So the checkboxes that were centered underneath the heading are now to the right of the word 'download'. I saw this in the rtm build also. just a fyi. Marking as verified.