While I admit the new layout for the browser is quite nice, there are some consistancy problems with producing webpages. For example take a gander at our company website with the old Netscape or MSIE. (http://www.ceramicbulletin.org) You'll see the side bars match up perfectly. Taken into the new Preview version of Mozilla (M6) you'll see that there are now spaces between the images and our webpages just doesn't work right. This as well as other design inconsistencies should be taken into concern. Perhaphs a throughal examination of websites with the current browser and the preview browser side by side would reveal several descriptincies. See also http://anthony.anselmo.com http://www.ceramicsmonthly.org http://www.potterymaking.org http://www.ac

Assigning to Layout component. petersen, can you check latest build for Mac only (is so, mark [PP] in Summary) or same problem across all platforms.

The spacing problem listed is not a bug. Your pages are incorrectly rendered by Nav4 and MSIE. To get the rendering you are looking for, you should include the follownig in your CSS: IMG { vertical-align: bottom; } I will further examine these pages in the next few days.

I am assigning this bug to myself, and will look at the pages in the near future. If there are any problems, then I will file new bugs. aanselmo@acers.org: Do you maintain the websites mentioned above?

Yes I do maintain the websites above. I use Adobe Golive for Macintosh.

The pages where created with Adobe Golive 4.0. And considering that the pages look fine in Nav4 and MSIE I think you guys need to adjust your new Nav browser to work correctly with the current standard. Or at least inform Adobe to update their product before you release your new browser. I don't have time to go back through 100 pages and adjust the code that works in a browser that isn't going to follow everyone else. Plus there are a ton of webpages this effects, not just the ones from our company. I don't see the logic in making a browser that doesn't comply to what is already out there. BTW this browser takes forever to get started on my machine, and I'm running a G3. http://www.cscarts.org I also noticed you have this gap problem when viewing other sites such as Apple.com, Microsoft.com etc...

Sounds like a candidate for quirks mode.

What is quirks mode?

Mozilla will have a mode such that if your page is not specified as HTML 4, it support old 'quirks'. HTML 4 pages will be rendered according to spec. At least, that's my understanding of it.

So when will this feature be implemented?

No idea myself. Ian, is this a valid quirk to pass on to some of the Netscape layout guys?

Basically put guys, you need to have the new netscape be compatible with the previous one if you want it go anywhere, or even be able to content with IE.

I wouldn't start worrying too much yet - I don't think it would be released like this, especially if its as prevalent as you say. The idea of quirks mode is to handle any bugs in old versions while making a clean break for HTML 4 pages, which are rendered according to spec. It's quite possible there's a duplicate bug of this somewhere too, in particular, 5755 looks similar, and there's a few other bugs that look suss - do a lookup on "spac" in the summary. Ian, as far as I can see these pages have no CSS. Now, I don't claim to be an expert or anything near it, but my understanding of CSS was that you had a browser stylesheet with a lower priority than the user and author stylesheet. Therefore wouldn't it be up to the browser how to do this in the absence of an author or user stylesheet? Is there a standard browser stylesheet the CSS spec dictates in case of no attached stylesheet? Or always? Was this specified in HTML before the presentational stuff was deprecated? Just curious as to how this is a "bug" in the previous versions.

Using nightly build 1999-09-01-09-M10 on Windows NT. I can't see any problems at http://www.ceramicbulletin.org (the content must have changed since this bug was reported since there is no sidebar there.) The following 3 pages suffers from bug 5821: http://anthony.anselmo.com http://www.ceramicsmonthly.org http://www.potterymaking.org I can't see any problems with http://www.ac Thus marking this bug as a dup of bug 5821. *** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of 5821 ***

mats@symsoft.se: Thanks for you help, but I must reopen this bug. :-) This is a metabug used for me to find all errors on the http://www.ceramicbulletin.org/ ...website and others mentioned above. I have it only as a reminder that I must do this. I am waiting for the layout engine to stabalise before carefully examining the many pages on those sites for rendering inconsistencies. aanselmo@acers.org: When I do start examining these websites carefully, I may contact you about issues where Mozilla does the correct thing (as given by the relevant specifications), but where this is not the behaviour you were seeking. As noted above, we are implementing a NavQuirks mode which is designed to emulate the old buggy behaviour, so there should be no problems. matty@box.net.au: Quirks mode is actually already implemented, there is a switch in one of the menus somewhere. Eventually we will decide on the quirks mode based on the document's DOCTYPE declaration (see bug 1312). Also: yes, CSS has a concept of a ua.css file (in Mozilla we call it that, look for it under the resources directory). Look in the spec, it explains that any page has at least three CSS stylesheets that affect it: the UA's stylesheet, the user's stylesheet, and the document's stylesheet. I'm marking this bug M12 (beta), I may push it over to M13 depending on time constraints.

Well that explains that my knowledge was right, but doesn't explain why the current behaviour is "right". Is the current behaviour right and the old behaviour wrong, or are both equally right?

Err... which behaviour, exactly?

There is a white vertical stripe down the middle of this page (on my linux box)...Some sort of table issue.

The spaces between the images.

matty: Yes, our current behaviour is correct per CSS2. This will be a NavQuirks behaviour thing (being implemented Right Now...).

OK, what I really mean is, is solving this as easy as changing the browser stylesheet for quirks mode? If so, how is any one way of displaying it "right"?

matty: It's done. See bug 5821.

Cool. Are you seeing any improvement with recent builds Anthony? So therefore would I be right in saying that both Moz's new and old behaviour was right, according to spec, since it can have any browser stylesheet it wanted to?

No, Moz's new behaviour (quirk mode only) is _wrong_. There is no way to specify the behaviour that we currently have according to the CSS2 spec. The behaviour is there as a compatability mode quirk only.

Guys, you need to start talking english here, you are going way over my head. Let me give you a little background about myself. I am a web designer, with moderate html knowledge, but mainly work in Golive to build the sites I work on. My major concern is that when you release the new Netscape Navigator that all my websites show up consistantly with the previous browsers. Currently with the beta version of mozilla there is a gap in my tables that I use for menus. The mozilla program itself has gotten a bit more stable in recent builds, but I still feels needs a lot of work. Now when you guys are talking, I am trying to sort through all my email and figure out what's going on. From what I take I am assuming that in the new netscape there will be a feature for the new version of html as well as a way to detect if the page is using the older style html. When the page is loaded the browser will detemine which is which and display the page correctly? Am I correct in this assumption?

Yes, you are correct. A minor correction, though: Mozilla is currently _pre_ beta. We have not yet released a beta build. Of course there are problems in the current releases: we are still writing it! If there were no bugs, we would not have to work on it.

Since I am now back behind a proxy, I cannot investigate these sites with Mozilla until the proxy support is complete. Making dependencies.

With Mozilla Build 10, this problem is gone. Thank you.

With the Dec 01 Mac build, this page renders correctly. Marking verified fixed.