I feel Modern/2 has gone to a point where it is good enough to use as a default skin. If we use classic the general public will lok at us as being stuck in the past and lagging behind even NS in the UI. Therefore it is my vote that Modern/2 become the default skin

why is this assigned to me? modern as default...lol...you're lucky I didn't mark this wontfix! -> ui/df?

doncha wish bugzilla had bug 25950? *** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of 48710 ***

verif

not a dup, this deals with the new modern skin.

I think that modern/2 is the better choice for default. In former times, modern/1 was the default, and noone wanted to default classic, and now ppl don't default the much better modern/2? why? It's far more appreciated by users than modern/1 ever dreamed to be....

Robert, that is incorrect. The default skin for Mozilla was decided after a vote, which Classic won by 79 votes to 10. If a vote between Classic and the new Modern were held today, I would predict that Classic would win on Mac OS, Modern would win on Unix, and votes would be about evenly split on Windows. I would also predict that the level of support for the new Modern would decrease over time, as more and more people started using Mozilla (and had to look at the interface) for extended periods of time.

Matthew, thanks. I didn't know of the vote, could have been in a time frame where I didn't get everything that was happening... Don't know how a vote would end today but you could be right. How the future would look, well, I'm not sure you're true - it could also happen that people start liking that skin more and more... Anyways, I'd be happy to see a skin more different from Netscape 4 as a default. OTOH, it would also be nice to see one different from NS6 - but we don't have one built in currently. We shouldn't look like old technology, Mozilla is the *future* I believe - and for me, Classic is imitating the old days (even if some people might start flaming me now). Modern/2 is at least looking quite - as the name says - modern. Would be even better if we could have a completely different, also modern-looking non-Netscapeish default skin... In the mean time, I'd just like us to look more modern by default...

Modern is too radical and flashy, it's won't be good for extended periods of time. Classic is too much like the old days. We need a new skin that looks professional and acts like other apps, but which isn't very flashy, and that doesn't resemble older versions.

Sending to Ben to handle the discussion. Modern is currently the default skin for Netscape, the choice here is for the mozilla default skin (changing summary).

Ben has already asked for new icons for Classic. I think the intent is for Classic to evolve to be nicer over time, rather than being permanently tied to the 4.x look. Right, Ben?

I hope so, I just think that if we stick to classic as default we lok like we are holding on to old technology and not trying to start new. How will the general public know that this is a complete rewrite of NS code if it looks the same as the 4.x series??? I just say make modern the default until we can come up with "our" own skin.

The decision to switch to classic was made at the height of the dissatisfaction with Modern 1. This was despite the obvious fact that Modern 1 hadn't been touched in weeks at that point and anyone reading .ui knew there was a new skin coming. Oddly enough, with people working on Classic daily and not working on Modern1 at all Classic looked much better than Modern1 at that point. Time to re-evaluate that decision people. Modern 2 is not exactly aligned with my taste, but its damn nice.

So what bug do we vote for if we _don't_ want Modern2 to be the default?

Well this bug looks as though no one is wanting to consider it...so either we take it into consideration or lets just kill this bug dead..

Setting up a second-round bug-off between Classic and Modern2 is on my to-do list. Sorry for the delay.

Yah baybee! I agree!

*** Bug 58087 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Chaning the qa contact on these bugs to me. MPT will be moving to the owner of this component shortly. I would like to thank him for all his hard work as he moves roles in mozilla.org...Yada, Yada, Yada...

*** Bug 79385 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Fwiw, this bug was filed for making Modern 2 the default skin, and Modern 2 was recently replaced by Modern 3.

Well so lets make the new modern the default anyway.... I like it better ;) We need something to differenciate ourselves from the 4.x series of communicator

Modern (whatever version) is a Netscape proprietary design intended to give Netscape 6.x brand identity. Netscape donates that design and implementation to Mozilla and we use it as an alternate theme. This helps debug the underlying XUL and makes Mozilla a stronger and more considerate foundation for other theme builders. Classic isn't a great default in that it looks a lot like Netscape 4.x. But Modern is Netscape's current look. Mozilla should not look identical to Netscape's current shipping products. This only serves to blur the line between Mozilla and Netscape which is exactly what we _don't_ want to do. If there are volunteers willing to make Classic look like something new and fresh that is great. If there are volunteers who want to write an entirely new theme for Mozilla (in time for 1.0?) then great. This bug is not going to be fixed.

very well...

I would prefer if someone made an entirely new skin - maybe call it the "Professional skin" - in time for Moz 1.0. Please don't change the feel of the Classic skin. There are people like me who use it *precisely* because it looks like Communicator. I would even go further and ask that Classic be improved to make it look more like the 4.x series - such as changing the Personal Toolbar icons to make it look like the Personal Toolbar in Communicator.

LittleMozilla is a rather nice skin, i need to contribute a few fixes back to the author, but it might be closer to the professional feel you want.

Re: #22 (Asa Dotzler) That being the case, we really need to have a skin called "Mozilla"; a third choice to make us not look like Netscape 4.x, Netscape 6.x or any version of Netscape. Under your argument (which I agree with), Mozilla is already blurring the line with Netscape, since it looks just like Netscape 4.x. Is there already a bug # for a new skin?

re comment #22 -- While I appreciate the desire to differentiate Netscape and Mozilla, I'm not sure the benefits of that are greater than the benefits of defaulting to Modern. Classic drives people away: It looks ugly and archaic, and tabs don't work well (see bug 109607). People do not change the theme unless someone tells them to -- I've seen reviews (e.g. C'Net) done in Classic.

*** Bug 181409 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

It sounds like there are some people who strongly prefer the ascetic looks of Classic. I also see Asa's point about not using Modern to keep mozilla distinct from Netscape. However, Classic is both ugly and archaic. Notice that it is archaic not just because it looks like Navigator 4, but rather because it is counter to recent UI trends (think Aqua, Gnome, XP, AOL 8). Users expect colorfun, "fun" UI. Orbit does an excellent job on that dimension, while at the same time being perfectly usable for extended perionds of time. So, how about this possibility: 1) Mozilla ships with Classic, Modern or Orbit. 2) When it is launched for the first time, it shows the user a screen asking them to choose between Classic and Orbit. (The screen should probably show a piece of screenshot like themes.mozdev.org does it.) Mozilla then continues to be loaded with the selected skin. 3) There continues to be a View > Apply Theme menu This way everyone immediately uses whichever style they like. Since they only see a screenshot of the "other" theme for a short time, it doesn't come to haunt them in their sleep either...

*** Bug 188742 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

*** Bug 212957 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

*** Bug 213508 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Product-> Marketing: Classic makes Moz a harder sell. Reopening: Asa wrote in comment 22 back in May 2001 "Modern (whatever version) is a Netscape proprietary design intended to give Netscape 6.x brand identity. Netscape donates that design and implementation to Mozilla and we use it as an alternate theme. ..." Have things changed?

With regards especially to comment #8, comment #22, comment #24, comment #26, and comment #29 ... just to name a few: :) Things have changed a bit since most of those comments were written. AOL is silently putting Netscape in a coffin, Mozilla is on its way to becoming independent, and we now have a standalone browser and mail/news client in the works. We seem to have three kinds of views: those who like modern, those who like classic and its icons, and those who like classic but only for the native-drawn appearance and wish the icons had a more modern (in the general, not theme, sense) look. As most know, Arvid is working on Qute for Mozilla Firebird and Mozilla Thunderbird. This may satisfy the third group I mentioned above for those who like the native appearance (myself included) but who don't like the aging appearance of the classic icons (myself included). Would Arvid--or anyone--be willing to "port" this to Mozilla (Seamonkey) when it's finished? Yes, we'll need a few more icons even when it's completel, but it'll be a huge start. But it'll have both good, this-decade icons (a plus for modern but seeming lack for classic) as well as native-looking widgets (a plus for classic but nonexistent in modern)--and create something between the two. It just might satisfy those who are in between. Personally, I do like modern, but I'm indifferent to making it the default. I know many would feel more comfortable without having to learn a new-looking GUI, but Classic's old appearance may drive off many. (And it's *huge* tabs on Windows XP Luna don't help.)

Nope. Nothing's changed.

Ben - would you care to elaborate? What's now preventing us from making modern the default?

Adding self to CC Request Change of Title: From: Make (new) Modern the mozilla default skin To: We need a new Default skin; was: (Make Modern the mozilla default skin) Added this bug to Forgotten Bugs thread at MozillaZine at: http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?p=1681285. Please: Let there be a much better theme than the current default Classic theme be developed. Classic does not impress first-time users. Qute on Firefox is much better. Maybe Arvid (http://quadrone.org/) can create a full suite of icons for SeaMonkey? Or simply use Orbit or something from http://spuler.us. I'm sure Aaron Spuler will be happy to help... Maybe this can be done before the release of SeaMonkey 1_0 final?