Mitra Ardron Reporter
	Description • 16 years ago

User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-GB; rv:1.9.0.2) Gecko/2008090512 Firefox/3.0.2
Build Identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1b1pre) Gecko/20080917025353 Shredder/3.0b1pre

When looking at a message along with the list of messages in the box, the new (grey-blue) bar takes up too much space. 

Screen real estate is important in this view as you are frequently flicking through a lot of messages, looking back and forth between the lsit of messages and the actual message. 

The new layout uses at least two lines too much because the "Reply" "Forward" etc buttons appear ABOVE the From line, and "Hide Details" appears below. 

Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
1.
2.

	Bryan Clark (DevTools PM) [:clarkbw]
	Comment 1 • 16 years ago

Interesting, I did a side by side comparison before we moved to the latest look and found that we're actually using less space than before.  Are you seeing something different than this?  (obviously this is a screenshot from windows)

Also, try the new nightly if possible as things have changed again from the dark blue bar.

	Mitra Ardron Reporter
	Comment 2 • 16 years ago

You may be right , it just looked like more space - the point I made is still valid though (even with new - nicer - grey layout) that there is screen real-estate that could be captured above the "From" and below the "Date" but I guess that could be a UI preference, i.e. I think they grey color picks out the header and would rather see another line of the text of the message than the spacing.

	Simon Bünzli
	Comment 3 • 16 years ago

(In reply to comment #1)
> Created an attachment (id=339800) [details]
The fonts in the right screenshot are way bigger than the ones on the left one. Fonts being the same size, the new layout indeed uses more space (due to the padding above/below the headers)...

	Peter Lairo
	Comment 4 • 16 years ago

I think the new layout doesn't respect the user-chosen font size (in Windows XP: display properties / appearance / advanced / item:). I consider this a Regression.

I also don't like the Subject no longer being the top item. Regression!

The Subject should be *bold* again. Regression!

One of the few things I like about the new panel is that the collapsed panel is now finally usable. :-)

	Bryan Clark (DevTools PM) [:clarkbw]
	Comment 5 • 16 years ago

> I also don't like the Subject no longer being the top item. Regression!
> 
> The Subject should be *bold* again. Regression!

Peter: you need to stay on topic.  This bug is about the headers possibly taking up too much space, please use the other bugs for comments related to other areas.

	Przemyslaw Bialik
	Comment 6 • 16 years ago

(In reply to comment #4)
> One of the few things I like about the new panel is that the collapsed panel is
> now finally usable. :-)
But now from the other side whole thing takes 2 lines which is only 2 times less than non-collapsed header pane - can be considered a regression.
(1 line for collapsed mode would still provide more info because now subject: and from: are no longer displayed).

	Mike Cowperthwaite
	Comment 7 • 16 years ago

(In reply to comment #1)
> I did a side by side comparison 

How disingenuous can you get?  Is the font-size difference not completely obvious to you?  It's becoming clear, Bryan W Clark, that you're bound and determined to cram your lovely little ivory-tower UI principles down the throats of everyone, to the point of distorting the evidence.

	Joshua Cranmer [:jcranmer]
	Comment 8 • 16 years ago

(In reply to comment #7)
> Created an attachment (id=341839) [details]
> New vs. Old without an agenda behind it
> 
> (In reply to comment #1)
> > I did a side by side comparison 
> 
> How disingenuous can you get?  Is the font-size difference not completely
> obvious to you?

Actually, comparing your screenshot to my running instance of Thunderbird (on Linux, your screenshot has less line spacing, and with your colors, I'm guessing you've got some custom styling going on...

Also, following through the DOMi, the font-size difference happens... because it was explicitly changed. TB 2 gives a computed style of 13.333px while the patch makes the size 12px.

Finally, please try to keep a civil tongue when responding.

	Mike Cowperthwaite
	Comment 9 • 16 years ago

(In reply to comment #8)
> Actually, comparing your screenshot to my running instance of Thunderbird (on
> Linux, your screenshot has less line spacing, and with your colors, I'm
> guessing you've got some custom styling going on...

Right you are: see bug 346966 comment 24.  This attachment shows both styles of envelope even larger with that customization turned off.  (Also, I commented in that bug that I was using Large Fonts under Windows; I no longer do.)


> Also, following through the DOMi, the font-size difference happens... because
> it was explicitly changed. TB 2 gives a computed style of 13.333px while the
> patch makes the size 12px.

Can you point me to a DOMi that runs on Shredder?

The text in Bryan's screenshot of the old style is substantially larger than 13.33 px.  He was running with some customization of his own, either within Moz or within his OS -- viz. Peter Lairo's complaint that the user's systemwide pref settings are being ignored in this display.  (Which, of course, is not *this* bug.)

	Mark Banner (:standard8)
	Comment 10 • 16 years ago

(In reply to comment #9)
> Can you point me to a DOMi that runs on Shredder?

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/6622

	Bryan Clark (DevTools PM) [:clarkbw]
	Comment 11 • 16 years ago

(In reply to comment #7)
attachment 339800 [details] is a default setup of 2 versions running off Windows Vista

Mike: please read https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=etiquette.html

I'll respond to reasonable comments, but if you could leave the personal attacks out I think we'll actually make progress.  I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that we're both working for a better Thunderbird, but that's difficult when faced with comments like these.

	alta88
	Comment 12 • 16 years ago

the biggest (and only so far) problem i have with all this is the collapsed header taking up 2 lines.  but it's a serious regression and waste of real estate; the large majority of messages (email/news for sure, but even feeds) will leave large unnecessary gaps on the first line.

further, the Show Details button should be leftmost; Hide Details should be at the same location under the cursor for fast toggling, mouse movement here is very bad as currently done, and they both should be the same sized square button.

thanks.

	Joe Sabash [:JoeS1]
	Comment 15 • 16 years ago

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=342835 shows 4 different views of the same message.
Image1 slice is with branch with headers collapsed
Image2 slice is with Alat88's extension using the f11 option
Image3 slice is the new view with mail toolbar delected
Image4 slice is with the toolbar hidden.

Take a look at the screen real estate in the views.

My vote is for including F11 as an option as in the my second attachment.

Alta88, can you do that for trunk

	alta88
	Comment 16 • 16 years ago

sure.  F11 o/t here but:

1) you can file a bug. it doesn't seem more layouts are wanted in core (bug 215661) and i'd only do it if it's pre decided that the feature goes in.

2) lightning needs to give it up (bug 425435).

	Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]
	Comment 17 • 16 years ago

blocking‑thunderbird3-, but there's certainly room for some improvement here as vertical screen real estate is precious. Moving to wanted+, p2.

	Jay Moran (jaym/lazvon)
	Comment 18 • 16 years ago

Do not like the new header format at all. Will stick with Alpha 2 until they do not waste space above and below, and the SUBJECT is the first line (or last) again.

	Gary Oberbrunner
	Comment 19 • 16 years ago

Hi folks, I've just started using Shredder (3.0b1pre nightly) and definitely notice a lot of new unnecessary gray space in the header/envelope area as compared with TB2, as others have noticed here.  I'm on Win XP SP2.   Isn't there any way to use multiple columns here, especially for the elements that are always short (from and date, as an example, could share a line)?  Of course the dead space above & below I expect is just a bug and will be removed.  Vertical space is precious in the layout!

	Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)
	Comment 20 • 16 years ago

(In reply to comment #12)
> the biggest (and only so far) problem i have with all this is the collapsed
> header taking up 2 lines.  but it's a serious regression and waste of real
> estate; the large majority of messages 

I am squarely in this camp. I can't speak to the expanded header, which I rarely use.  But the former "short header" is 5x the size of 2.x's one liner.  Even if one argues the previous one line is severe, a 2x-4x increase is still ouch!!

bug 466025's extension shows great ingenuity.  baseline Thunderbird must have some of that ingenuity to get header down at minimum of 2-3x. 

This might be accomplished in part by moving the "show details" down arrow to a spot shared with "hide details" in a *fixed* location - they currently don't align, which is now a pain in the mouse :) if you want to do a expand to view some headers, and then collapse.  Perhaps to the right of the "junk" button?  

Changing from minor to normal because there is no workaround for people who want to dogfood trunk productively without (or minimal) extensions.  

needs to meet a target of 3.0b2.

	Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)
	Comment 22 • 16 years ago

prettier

	Phil Ringnalda (:philor)
	Comment 23 • 16 years ago

How much does it affect the size difference in the expanded view if you don't have Tb3 showing user-agent, and Tb2 not showing it?

	Vincent (caméléon)
	Comment 26 • 15 years ago

In my opinion, you can easily save two "line" :
- one if you don't display the "address for the answer" field (at least if it as same value that the address field, which is the case in 95% of the mail).
- one if you moved the "other actions" button somewhere near the other buttons.

	Not interested in Mozilla any more
	Comment 27 • 15 years ago

This is a huge about of space to loose to a header line, and a vast shame to take away the folding header toggle from the interface. I won't be shipping 3.x out to our users until this is fixed, they would kill me.

Seriously, one line is all it needs and the extra buttons in the header area are a complete waste of time, that's what the toolbar is for.

	casier
	Comment 28 • 15 years ago

Oh my god, the headers are *horrible* in TB 3 b3 ! Where is this awsome option "hide details" !?!

Please bring it back soon, this is simply boring !

	Pete Riley
	Comment 29 • 15 years ago

My solution for this UI horror is the following in my userchrome.css:

/* hide header titles */
.headerNameBox
{
     display: none !important;
}

/* hide "Bubbles" when mouse passes over email fields */
.emailDisplayButton:hover
{
     color: blue !important;
     background-color: transparent !important;
}

/* Stars be gone */
.emailStar
{
     display: none !important;
}

/* Hide Reply/Forward/Archive/Junk/Delete buttons */
#expandedButtonBox
{
     display: none !important;
}

/* Subject */
#expandedsubjectBox > .headerValue
{
     font-family: 'Comic Sans MS';
     font-size: 16pt !important;
}

/* Date */
#expandeddateBox
{
     display: none !important;
}

/* Hide "Other Actions" button */
#otherActionsButton
{
     display: none !important;
}


Even after hiding all those things, there's still a significant amount of wasted vertical space as the attached screenshot shows.

	Alfred Kayser
	Comment 30 • 15 years ago

One of the issues is that the buttonbox forces the 'from' line to have the
height of the buttons... A better solution here would be to let the button-box
span multiple rows of the header.

	Craig Kelley
	Comment 31 • 15 years ago

Here is a screen shot of the problem in Wide View mode.  The UI allows me to grow/shrink every element but the mail headers, which easily eat up a third of the window with useless gray space.

	Bryan Clark (DevTools PM) [:clarkbw]
	Comment 32 • 15 years ago

Marking this as fixed (by bug 499410 and soon bug 514452) since this bug doesn't seem to be progressing and bug 499410 has landed moving the headers to an actual grid such that there isn't extra padding as was before.  Likely new issues with the header should be filed as new bugs to keep them correctly dated.

	Not interested in Mozilla any more
	Comment 33 • 15 years ago

Gosh I must try that at work. If I don't fix something for long enough I can simply declare it fixed because I've not bothered to do anything. Appalling.

	Alfred Kayser
	Comment 34 • 15 years ago

Ian, the spacing of the message header been reduced by those bugs mentioned in comment 32. However, the new functionality of the buttons in the header do take up a little bit more space than compared with TB2.

If space is really concern, one can always use theme that is more space saving, such as LittleBird or Nautipolis (see attached)

	Not interested in Mozilla any more
	Comment 35 • 15 years ago

3-4 times as much space is not a little more it's huge. It used to be one line with a simple subject sender and date. What is the point of having the 'to' in there. Plus I see absolutely no point in repeating the buttons in the message header that are already there in the tool bar, and the fact that it's a very non-mac thing to do having tool bars which aren't a the top of the window. All of those actions used to have keyboard equivalents anyway so I see no logic to the change in design. It's ruined a perfectly good interface for stuff that's already been done better in the previous versions.

Looking at your nautipolis attachment that's slightly better but still three times the size of the previous version.

	Alfred Kayser
	Comment 36 • 15 years ago

What you are referring to is the collapsed header thing.
This functionality has been moved from TB to a separate extension called 'CompactHeader' (which also adds some other functionality as well).
Just install it from:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/13564
and you have the one line header back.

	Not interested in Mozilla any more
	Comment 37 • 15 years ago

Two problems with that. First, is should be a standard part of the system. People are used to it being there. Second, whilst the compact part of the addon is great the expanded view is vile.

	Alfred Kayser
	Comment 38 • 15 years ago

The move of the CompactHeader is a separate bug, so please discuss your feelings about this here.
Please see Bug 486167 -  One-liner compact message header no longer available.